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WIndows Icing
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-24 3:52 AM (#1922)
Subject: WIndows Icing



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Especially when I have several people on board the moisture in the cabin leads to icing of the passenger windows at higher altitudes. Is there a solution to that?
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lmamane
Posted 2017-08-24 4:16 AM (#1923 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 21

Location: ELLX
I've heard that there exists an insulated window, but I never considered it worth the extra expense.

One passenger just scraped the icing (frost) with her bank card
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-24 4:18 AM (#1926 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Do you know the vendor for the insulated windows?
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dhinkel
Posted 2017-08-24 9:12 AM (#1927 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: RE: WIndows Icing


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Posts: 13

Georg;
try running the A/C on low cool and fan when at altitude.. The inlet bleed air is warm
and you can blend the two. Will remove humidity (moisture) from cabin air. No moisture,
no frost on windows. Dual pane side windows work as well. Cost a little more than turning
a couple of knobs though.

N-50DH
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dock4400
Posted 2017-08-24 10:00 AM (#1928 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: RE: WIndows Icing


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Do not ever run the air conditioner compressor above 180. Electric motors act very differently outside a preassurized cabin at altitude.
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-24 2:15 PM (#1931 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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I have mostly problems when my aircraft ist fully loaded with Pax. Alone it's not so critical. So I assume...the breathing air of the passengers is more relevant than the outside moisture...

never heard that the A/C hat a altitude limitation ?!? Is this true?

Does anyone know a vendor for the dual pane windows?
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dhinkel
Posted 2017-08-25 10:13 AM (#1936 - in reply to #1931)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


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Posts: 13

Georg;
just another serving of BS passed along with other OWT.
Opinions are like ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,everyone has them.
N50DH
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-25 10:29 AM (#1937 - in reply to #1936)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Hi Donald,

didn't get your message...

What is OWT and BS?

Georg
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dock4400
Posted 2017-08-25 11:03 AM (#1938 - in reply to #1937)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


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Hinkel is saying bull shit (bs).
But he doesn't have a clue as to what is talking about.

I also fly a BeechJet 400. It has the exact same compressor and electric motor in an unpressurized area behind the luggage cab.
Every year, during recurrence training, they refresh everybody on leakage, creepage and arcing of electric motors at altitude.
For example, the leakage of an electric motor in an unpressureized area at 16,000 loses 30% of its horsepower.
The arcing can ruin a motor, degrade a motor or even cause an electrical fire.

Go ahead and do what you want.
There is a checklist item in the BeechJet for this.
There is actual science rather than emotion behind it.

Icing of passenger windows is a common complaint.
I found higher heat and high defrost helps, but it doesn't go away.
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-25 11:10 AM (#1939 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Aaah, OK. Learnt something...BS is clear...but what is OWT?

Jake: many thanks for your explanation! I am using A/C typically on ground in summer. As soon as I climb, I switch it off...
Donald: I think A/C would reduce the humidity from the outside, but I think the passengers are creating a higher amount of humidity especially at higher altitude...

What do you think. Would dual pane windows help? I tried to find a supplier and couldn't find one. Any ideas?


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lmamane
Posted 2017-08-25 1:38 PM (#1940 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


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Posts: 21

Location: ELLX
OWT would be "Old Wives' Tale" I guess. I've reactivated the contact where I heard about the insulated window, haven't heard back yet. They told me they themselves heard it from O&N.
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-25 3:29 PM (#1941 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Oh..."OWT" very nice :- )
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dock4400
Posted 2017-08-25 3:50 PM (#1942 - in reply to #1939)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


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Posts: 78
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Georg,
I don't have a clue. I have never heard of the dual pane windows or have I heard of any experiences with them.
I do think you are spot on with your analysis.
I think it is the moisture content that causes this to varying degrees.
It is more noticeable with more people in the cabin.
If it is just me and the dog, I get a thin film of frost on the passenger side window after about 2 hours of flight at altitude. That's it. No where else.
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-25 4:54 PM (#1943 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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same with me...alone it's almost not relevant...but with 5 pax on board...

Does anyone have dual pane windows?!?!?!? Do they exist or are they OWT? ;-)
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blymburn
Posted 2017-08-27 10:39 AM (#1944 - in reply to #1943)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 17

Location: Oakland, California (KOAK)
I have them - they were installed by Bob Nicolas at Propjet in Santa Rosa, on all side windows except the openable pilot-side window. Better thermal comfort when hot or cold outside. Haven't had icing problems with them. 
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-27 3:25 PM (#1945 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Hey Bruce, so they exist...do you know the name of the supplier? What did you pay for it?
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blymburn
Posted 2017-08-27 3:32 PM (#1946 - in reply to #1945)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 17

Location: Oakland, California (KOAK)
 I've asked Bob to send me the information, or post it on this thread.   I had mine done a few years ago, and I don't know what the current cost would be.   Anyway, I'll make sure you get the info. 
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-27 3:57 PM (#1947 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Hey Bruce, many thanks....by the way...interested in my idea for a Fly-in next year?
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blymburn
Posted 2017-08-27 5:14 PM (#1948 - in reply to #1947)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 17

Location: Oakland, California (KOAK)

 I love the SE Fly-In idea…but I might not have the time to meet up in the EU...  meet you halfway-ish, east coast US?

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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-27 5:15 PM (#1949 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Hey Bruce, we have to think about 2 fly-in. One in the US and one in Europe.
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blymburn
Posted 2017-08-27 5:18 PM (#1950 - in reply to #1949)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 17

Location: Oakland, California (KOAK)
Sounds like fun!  I'd learn a lot, no doubt - we could invite speakers like RR and SE APs etc. 
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-27 5:19 PM (#1951 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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that's the idea!
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dhinkel
Posted 2017-08-30 3:50 PM (#1961 - in reply to #1939)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 13

George;
our SE have closed loop air cond systems. With the exception of turbine bleed air that
pressurizes our cabins, Outside air is not brought into the cabin. All humidity is from occupants
breathing
The A/C system de-humidifies the cabin air and discharges under the pilots seat to the
atmosphere, (or on the ground).
That is why I reco using the A/C with a select amt. of heat to keep the cabin warm and
windows clear. If there was a restriction against using our system up to 23,000' I think
that it would be stated in our ops manual.
Of course, in the rarified atmosphere that the Beechjet crowd uses, 30-40,000' these little
electric motors have met their match. Moral of the story, don't take your S.E. up to 41M'
and try to use A/C.

Don H.
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Georg Kraus
Posted 2017-08-30 4:45 PM (#1962 - in reply to #1922)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing



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Location: EDRY
Hi Don,

I have to say, that I haven't checked the functioning of my A/C System yet (shame on me)

Would love to climb to FL 410 with my SE ;- )


Many thanks for your comments!

by the way...interested in the idea of a fly-in next year?


Georg
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blymburn
Posted 2017-08-30 5:51 PM (#1963 - in reply to #1962)
Subject: Re: WIndows Icing


Member

Posts: 17

Location: Oakland, California (KOAK)

Hi Georg -  

 I heard back from Bob Nicolas -- here is what he wrote: 

"Bruce the windows come from a source called G&D Aero, they own the STC for them...when the kit comes to us, it is merely 9 square cut sections of Lexan tinted...we have to measure and make templates of each window individual, then custom fit to that window...not an easy task and not one your average lay person can handle... We charge $3,200.00 installed....."

 Hope this is helpful.

Bruce 

 

 

 

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